Topic: Jbuilder moving to Eclipse ！！强烈抗议Borland的暴行 |
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| 1.Jbuilder moving to Eclipse ！！强烈抗议Borland的暴行 | Copy to clipboard |
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Posted by: Big Blue Posted on: 2005-04-01 10:19 http://www.itwriting.com/jbuilderfutures.php Borland已经毁掉了Delphi,现在又要毁掉Jbuilder!!强烈抗议Borland的暴行 建议联名上书Borland,抗议其所作所为 | |
| 2.Re:强烈抗议Borland的暴行 [Re: Big Blue] | Copy to clipboard |
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Posted by: davidself Posted on: 2005-04-01 10:22 见鬼，访问不了，说说怎么回事吧。 | |
| 3.Re:强烈抗议Borland的暴行 [Re: Big Blue] | Copy to clipboard |
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Posted by: Big Blue Posted on: 2005-04-01 10:27 Borland, JBuilder and Eclipse On February 28th 2005, Borland became a Strategic Developer in the Eclipse Foundation. What are the implications for JBuilder, Borland's Java IDE? Tim Anderson gives his view, based on a recent interview with Raaj Shinde, Vice President product strategy and architecture at Borland’s Together business unit. Future versions of JBuilder are likely to be based on Eclipse, according to Raaj Shinde, Vice President product strategy and architecture at Borland’s Together business unit. I interviewed Raaj earlier this week. “I have been driving the Eclipse strategy at Borland for a long time,” he explained. “I don’t look at Eclipse as an IDE; I look at Eclipse as a general-purpose framework for building applications. Especially now with Eclipse with the OSGi plug-in and the architecture they have come up with, to me it’s two million lines of well-architected, extremely well tested source code that allows me to build great applications” Eclipse is certainly making great strides towards becoming the standard Java IDE. In the last two months, Borland, BEA, Sybase and Computer Associates have signed up as Strategic Developers, indicating a high level of commitment. Existing Strategic Developers include IBM and Intel, while HP and SAP are among those on board as Strategic Consumers. In fact, Borland, BEA and Sybase all have something in common. Each of these companies has at some point promoted its own Java IDE. Borland has JBuilder, of which more in a moment. BEA has Weblogic Workshop, and used to resell WebGain Studio, which included Visual Café. Sybase had PowerJ – remember that? Visual Café was once a market leader. As for JBuilder, it remains a very popular IDE. At the same time, there have been signs that Borland was struggling to compete with Eclipse. Eclipse has several advantages. First, it is backed by IBM. Second, it is both free and of high quality. Third, it is built using a plug-in architecture; calling it “extensible” hardly does it justice. It is an ideal platform for vendors to extend into a developer platform for their server products. Not long ago Borland was still trying to take on Eclipse and build a rival tools platform. When JBuilderX was launched at the end of 2003, Borland emphasized its extensibility through the Swing-based Open Tools API, and made the basic version of JBuilderX free even for commercial usage. However, Eclipse already had too much momentum. According to Shinde, “the Borland SDO [Software Delivery Optimization] solution is going to be built on two primary platforms. One is Eclipse, the other is Visual Studio.” The obvious question is what will happen to JBuilder. Shinde indicated to me that the product will be rebuilt on Eclipse. “The framework on which we build the IDE can change at any time. For example, JBuilder 2.0 was built on the Delphi framework. JBuilder 3 was built on an entirely different framework, but it was still JBuilder. So we are going to bring our IDE expertise to the Eclipse world, because to be honest with you JDT [Java Developer Tools] is an OK IDE, but it is not a great IDE. So we are going to offer the Borland look and feel, the Borland experience with our IDEs on Eclipse.” What will Borland gain from this move? It will be better placed to offer its Application Lifecycle tools to the huge Eclipse user base, and will benefit from the many open source and commercial Eclipse plug-ins. At the same time, this is a retreat. Despite Shinde’s comments, this is not the same as the move from an IDE built with Delphi (JBuilder 2.0) to a pure Java version (JBuilder 3.0). That was a natural evolution and was always planned. Transplanting JBuilder to Eclipse is more radical. I also asked about what happens to the Open Tools API. “There might be some code compatibility problems,” Shinde admitted. “but due to the nature of the Eclipse plug-in ecosystem I think that this will make it far easier for people to build interesting extensions to JBuilder in the future.” Let me be clear: Shinde was not indicating that JBuilder will be abandoned. “We will continue to add value to that product,” he stated. “We believe the framework we build on top of is really irrelevant, it’s the feature set, the functionality and the value that people want out of JBuilder, and we will continue to provide that.” Therefore I fully expect there will be future versions of JBuilder, shrink-wrapped in a smart box at the usual kind of prices. How different it will look from the current version, and whether it will use SWT or Swing, is a matter for speculation. However, let’s consider what this looks like to the casual observer. Borland will no longer have its own Java IDE. Borland is moving to Eclipse. It makes JBuilder harder to sell in my view. Some will simply move to Eclipse now – or perhaps to another IDE such as the fine IntelliJ IDEA - and not wait for the new JBuilder. | |
| 4.Re:强烈抗议Borland的暴行 [Re: davidself] | Copy to clipboard |
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Posted by: Jove Posted on: 2005-04-01 10:28 Post is deleted | |
| 5.Re:强烈抗议Borland的暴行 [Re: Big Blue] | Copy to clipboard |
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Posted by: Big Blue Posted on: 2005-04-01 10:32 Jbuilder moving to Eclipse | |
| 6.Re:强烈抗议Borland的暴行 [Re: Jove] | Copy to clipboard |
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Posted by: ditty Posted on: 2005-04-01 10:42 唉，要统一了，真不愿意看到这一幕。 | |
| 7.Re:Jbuilder moving to Eclipse ！！强烈抗议Borland的暴行 [Re: Big Blue] | Copy to clipboard |
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Posted by: jigsaw Posted on: 2005-04-01 10:47 IntelliJ IDEA. 似乎是最后一个山头了 | |
| 8.Re:强烈抗议Borland的暴行 [Re: ditty] | Copy to clipboard |
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Posted by: littledeer1974 Posted on: 2005-04-01 10:48 为什么呀,统一有什么不好呀,大家给我说说 | |
| 9.Re:强烈抗议Borland的暴行 [Re: Big Blue] | Copy to clipboard |
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Posted by: liwenguo Posted on: 2005-04-01 10:49 ibm统一天下了！IDE都长一个模样啊！ 难以想象啊 | |
| 10.Re:强烈抗议Borland的暴行 [Re: littledeer1974] | Copy to clipboard |
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Posted by: Big Blue Posted on: 2005-04-01 11:04 littledeer1974 wrote: 如果这个星球上只有一个物种 如果这个世界上只有一个国家 如果你的餐桌上只有一种食物 如果你的手机也不得不用X86芯片 如果所有的人都是一个模样 。。。。 | |
| 11.Re:强烈抗议Borland的暴行 [Re: Big Blue] | Copy to clipboard |
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Posted by: leowu2000 Posted on: 2005-04-01 11:07 虽然我很支持eclipse,但是我还是不愿看到天下统一! 对于普通用户可能是好处,就像windows的统一一样,但是对于技术的推进发展确实不利的,我还是希望看到同类产品有3-5个是势均力敌的,一枝独大,就没有选择机会了  凡事总有利弊,可能borland有其他利益存在,但愿不会是重蹈delphi的覆辙. | |
| 12.Re:强烈抗议Borland的暴行 [Re: littledeer1974] | Copy to clipboard |
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Posted by: ditty Posted on: 2005-04-01 11:10 littledeer1974 wrote: 竞争才能产生动力，没了竞争，发展就会有问题。 | |
| 13.Re:Jbuilder moving to Eclipse ！！强烈抗议Borland的暴行 [Re: Big Blue] | Copy to clipboard |
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Posted by: davidself Posted on: 2005-04-01 11:24 看文章的意思，好像borland只是把eclipse作为平台，拿jbuilder和jdt竞争（这样理解不知道合不合适？），还是等出来了在看。 | |
| 14.Re:Jbuilder moving to Eclipse ！！强烈抗议Borland的暴行 [Re: Big Blue] | Copy to clipboard |
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Posted by: yqyan Posted on: 2005-04-01 11:32 这是今天的新闻吗？ 不会是愚人节玩笑吧？ 不过如果Borland能够主导Eclipse，取代IBM，到也不一定是坏事啊。 | |
| 15.Re:Jbuilder moving to Eclipse ！！强烈抗议Borland的暴行 [Re: Big Blue] | Copy to clipboard |
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Posted by: gfcae Posted on: 2005-04-01 11:51 产品的定位不同,Jbuilder不会消失的 | |
| 16.Re:Jbuilder moving to Eclipse ！！强烈抗议Borland的暴行 [Re: Big Blue] | Copy to clipboard |
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Posted by: 阿熊 Posted on: 2005-04-01 13:28 统一后，一起对付.net了 没什么不好 JBuilder 2.0 was built on the Delphi framework. JBuilder 3 was built on an entirely different framework, but it was still JBuilder. 这样可以吸取JBuilder与Eclipse的长处 Eclipse的框架 JBuilder的界面 | |
| 17.Re:Jbuilder moving to Eclipse ！！强烈抗议Borland的暴行 [Re: zua] | Copy to clipboard |
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Posted by: hncszy Posted on: 2005-04-01 16:00 把各个公司的优势集中到一个统一的框架下，很好！ 分工协作总比彼此消耗强！ | |
| 18.Re:Jbuilder moving to Eclipse ！！强烈抗议Borland的暴行 [Re: Big Blue] | Copy to clipboard |
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Posted by: zgd Posted on: 2005-04-01 16:14 1、那个新闻是30日发的，不是今天 2、eclipse不是ibm直属，现在ibm也控制不了eclipse 3、java的ide再不联合起来就打不过.net studio的了 | |
| 19.Re:Jbuilder moving to Eclipse ！！强烈抗议Borland的暴行 [Re: Big Blue] | Copy to clipboard |
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Posted by: linux_china Posted on: 2005-04-01 18:46 >把各个公司的优势集中到一个统一的框架下，很好！分工协作总比彼此消耗强！ 关键这个框架掌握在哪个公司手里，谁掌握这个框架谁说话就比较硬气，说不定还可以改变其他公司的命运。软件开发本来就是分工协作总比彼此消耗，如果不这样的话，我们不如统一到MS的框架下，集中精力开Windows应用就OK啦，不用搞那么多操作系统，跨平台程序（如果不跨平台，说不定java就不会出现），开发太简单啦。同样国内那么多做OA、电信、金融等等的相同业务公司都撤啦，有一家公司做就OK啦，不过大家可能都失业啦。 >eclipse不是ibm直属，现在ibm也控制不了eclipse 说是幕后主人，IBM投资Eclipse最多，当然说话最有号召力，而且Eclipse大多数开发人员都是IBM的OTI公司的，单凭Eclipse这种不盈利的机构，如何养活Eclipse这个团队啊，这也是开源免费软件很难存活的原因。就现在而言，IBM相当于赛车中的Driver，其他公司相当于Navigator，地球人都知道。即便将来，Eclipse也是在少数的几家大公司的控制下，为这些公司服务的，而不是这几家大公司出钱，为所有的开发人员免费开发工具和服务的，这是商业，不是福利机构。 >java的ide再不联合起来就打不过.net studio的了 单凭IDE工具就能打败另一种语言和平台好像不太现实，这样的话很多语言和框架完全可以以Eclipse平台为基础开发新的IDE工具，重建辉煌。Java最初也不是以IDE争取到用户的，完全是其理念。 就是因为.net的理念和java不一样，所以java程序员就要去打败.net，未免有点小气啦。再说如果真的打败.net，那么Eclipse不就处于垄断啦，和现在的Windows，Office有区别吗？ Borland加入Eclipse是商业考虑，而不是全力支持Java对抗.net，如果.net studio不存在，那么.net也不存在，那么Borland的其他工具C#builder等工具就over啦，borland的工具厂商，谁都支持的 。最后说一句，Borland转不转到Eclipse，那是商业问题（大家都不买JB还要求Borland去开发，有点说不过去），我没有Borland的股票，使用的全是Borland的盗版软件，只有我们向Borland索取，所以对borland的任何要求都是自欺欺人的，borland做什么事情都是值得尊重的。 | |
| 20.Re:Jbuilder moving to Eclipse ！！强烈抗议Borland的暴行 [Re: Big Blue] | Copy to clipboard |
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Posted by: zgd Posted on: 2005-04-01 19:45 ibm现在懂得一个做法 讨好程序员，让开源跑头 ibm能控制eclipse的方向吗，我看未必 java的ide再不联合起来就打不过.net studio的了 我说.net么？我说.net studio Java最初也不是以IDE争取到用户的 但是目前java的ide是劣势 如何吸引更多的程序员是要事 java不能再像以前那样看高自己 .net份额不停增高是有原因的 | |
| 21.Re:Jbuilder moving to Eclipse ！！强烈抗议Borland的暴行 [Re: zgd] | Copy to clipboard |
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Posted by: linux_china Posted on: 2005-04-02 09:19 >ibm现在懂得一个做法，讨好程序员，让开源跑头 Eclipse的最初目标是OTI公司为IBM做一个软件整合平台，将IBM的所有软件都可以整合起来，无心插柳柳成阴。至于现在IBM的想法，谁也不知道，把PC及笔记本业务抛弃掉，专攻服务器和软件及其他市场，我想IBM的董事觉得不会以讨好程序员为目标，这有可能就是我们的一厢情愿罢了。 >我说.net么？我说.net studio 如果.net stuido退出市场，.net的策略就算完啦，MS不会为人作嫁的，这谁都明白。 >但是目前java的ide是劣势 我个人觉得现在的java IDE工具做的不错啦，如一些高级特性：重构，代码审查、测试等等方面都不错的，其他语言的工具还比较欠缺的，也有可能是Java语言的语法简单。任何一个工具发展竞争是关键，而且还需要时间，毕竟这不是10万名程序员1天可以完成，它要跟着新的理念和技术在前进的，我个人觉得Java IDE发展是最快速的，主要是众多IDE工具的竞争，如果只有一个工具，那么进步就小啦。VC和IE就是个例子，这几年就没有进步。 >java不能再像以前那样看高自己，.net份额不停增高是有原因的 大起大落的事情不用太在意。这其中涉及倒宣传和市场的导向。Windows的份额高不是其架构多优秀，多稳定，而是其市场策略，这个我们把握不了的，就如同抵制日货一样，虽有满腔热血，每次行动都以失败告终。 以上都是个人观点，仅是饭后聊资，不包含任何成见。
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| 22.Re:Jbuilder moving to Eclipse ！！强烈抗议Borland的暴行 [Re: Big Blue] | Copy to clipboard |
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Posted by: zgd Posted on: 2005-04-02 13:02 晕，一句话一句话的驳真的没意思 而且感觉有点空对空 最后想说的是 >这个我们把握不了的，就如同抵制日货一样，虽有满腔热血，每次行动都以失败告终。 你硬要把我说的话的高度拉到个人的高度我有点意见 如果直接趁机想借这里说说那些人那倒好 只是我不太喜欢跟日货的事情扯上任何关系，我不是热血青年，也不是反热血青年 散了，8 | |
| 23.Re:Jbuilder moving to Eclipse ！！强烈抗议Borland的暴行 [Re: Big Blue] | Copy to clipboard |
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Posted by: nickey Posted on: 2005-04-02 16:47 你买过JBUILDER么.. ECLIPSE要钱么? 太明显的优势嘛.. 真要你买正版,你会用JB么.. | |
| 24.Re:Jbuilder moving to Eclipse ！！强烈抗议Borland的暴行 [Re: nickey] | Copy to clipboard |
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Posted by: Big Blue Posted on: 2005-04-04 12:05 你怎知我没有买过？ | |
| 25.Re:Jbuilder moving to Eclipse ！！强烈抗议Borland的暴行 [Re: Big Blue] | Copy to clipboard |
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Posted by: fat32 Posted on: 2005-04-04 21:36 我倒觉得统一起来挺好的，只不过是底层框架的统一啊，具体的功能肯定和ibm wsad还是有很大差别的。 | |
| 26.Re:Jbuilder moving to Eclipse ！！强烈抗议Borland的暴行 [Re: linux_china] | Copy to clipboard |
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Posted by: 烂泥 Posted on: 2005-04-05 13:51 linux_china wrote: 赞成！ | |
| 27.Re:Jbuilder moving to Eclipse ！！强烈抗议Borland的暴行 [Re: Big Blue] | Copy to clipboard |
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Posted by: jblbose Posted on: 2005-04-08 03:38 这是好事情. 第一,我们不用担心IDE的单一化问题,首先ECLIPSE还有个强劲的对手VS.NET,其次由于ECLIPSE开放源代码的特性,它的统一也不会造成垄断.LINUX的内核是单一的,由LINUS发布的,可是它的发布版本却是操作系统里最多的,统一可以形成百花齐放而不会造成垄断,这就是开源和封闭不同的地方. 第二,BORLAND把基础开发平台迁移到ECLIPSE上,对它自己和JAVA用户都是利好.一方面BORLAND可以不用在基础IDE上投入太多研发资源,降低开发成本,另一方面用户可以利用原来的ECLIPSE经验来降低学习曲线.如果最后BORLAND灭亡了,不能怪它迁移到ECLIPSE平台上,只能怪它没有给我们提供比ECLIPSE更多的价值. 三年前我曾经在CSDN上一则新闻(http://www.csdn.net/news/newstopic/6/6226.shtml)后留言,推断几年后主流开发工具将只会剩下VS.NET和ECLIPSE两大平台.我相信未来的BORLAND也会把C++BUILDERX迁移到ECLIPSE上,甚至会把DELPHI和C#BUILDER迁移到ECLIPSE上再推出原生编译版本. 想到抵制日货,我谈一点感想.日本文化很单纯,崇尚强者,鄙视弱者,美国人在日本丢了两个弹弹,把小日本炸得服服贴贴,现在跟吧儿狗似的.所以毛泽东经过几次实践明白了枪杆子里面出政权,从此再也不去广场上游行,而是猫到农村搞暴动.我很欣赏深圳游行者的热情,但是希望他们把热情保存 到学习工作中去,中国的当务之急是提高实力. | |
| 28.Re:Jbuilder moving to Eclipse ！！强烈抗议Borland的暴行 [Re: Big Blue] | Copy to clipboard |
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Posted by: bbbaby Posted on: 2005-04-09 01:23 我觉得只有等着看下文，这些更本不是我们能力范围内的，说了有用么？不管怎么说，统一也好，分开继续竞争也好，总之只要能提高我们的工作效率的就是好事情，如果统一了不能提高的话，最多我们还是用原来好用的东西咯～^_^ | |
| 29.Re:Jbuilder moving to Eclipse ！！强烈抗议Borland的暴行 [Re: bbbaby] | Copy to clipboard |
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Posted by: YuLimin Posted on: 2005-04-09 14:15 not wait for the new JBuilder  to IDEA
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| 30.Re:Jbuilder moving to Eclipse ！！强烈抗议Borland的暴行 [Re: Big Blue] | Copy to clipboard |
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Posted by: Starcraft Posted on: 2005-04-09 16:24 统一也有好处。反正现在我我已经和coding没关系了，怎么样都无所谓了，哈哈。 | |
| 31.Re:Jbuilder moving to Eclipse ！！强烈抗议Borland的暴行 [Re: Starcraft] | Copy to clipboard |
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Posted by: Jove Posted on: 2005-04-09 18:33 这么high level了？ | |
| 32.Re:Jbuilder moving to Eclipse ！！强烈抗议Borland的暴行 [Re: Big Blue] | Copy to clipboard |
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Posted by: alexlex Posted on: 2005-04-14 10:01 作爲eclipse的用戶，當然希望可以用到jbuilder裏面的衆多強大功能，畢竟eclipse的部分插件還沒那麽強大 但是作爲jbuilder的用戶，是不是會感覺被抛棄了，也許就像文中作者說的，會就此抛棄jbuilder，直接使用eclipse或者其他java ide，畢竟原先也算是競爭對手，你投奔競爭對手，在大部分人看來也許接近于投降 borland公司是優秀的IDE開發商，.net，java都不是他說了算，見風使舵，搭對船才是生存之道，其實原本的delphi不錯，linux上的版本倒是不必太仰仗他人，可惜市場太小，時機不成熟 希望最後有個好結果 | |
| 33.Re:Jbuilder moving to Eclipse ！！强烈抗议Borland的暴行 [Re: Big Blue] | Copy to clipboard |
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Posted by: littledeer1974 Posted on: 2005-04-14 16:15 说来说去还不都是外国的事？！ | |
| 34.Re:Jbuilder moving to Eclipse ！！强烈抗议Borland的暴行 [Re: Big Blue] | Copy to clipboard |
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Posted by: aizai511 Posted on: 2005-05-15 01:33 天下之势，分久必合，合久必分！这是历史发展的必然趋势啊！ 不过各有各的优势！真不知道这样合了会有什么好处啊？ | |
| 35.Re:Jbuilder moving to Eclipse ！！强烈抗议Borland的暴行 [Re: Big Blue] | Copy to clipboard |
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Posted by: jimmiao Posted on: 2005-05-17 11:01 没有什么统一不统一的 borland的意思是在eclipse上开发jb。 这个和我们程序员有什么关系？ 我看没必要大惊小怪，是很多人误解了borland的意思 大家有空去看看borland的技术首页，有他们VP的一份公开信，什么时候的事了 | |
| 36.Re:Jbuilder moving to Eclipse ！！强烈抗议Borland的暴行 [Re: Big Blue] | Copy to clipboard |
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Posted by: blueoxygen Posted on: 2005-06-02 22:04 人家也没说jb消失阿 看这段 Let me be clear: Shinde was not indicating that JBuilder will be abandoned. “We will continue to add value to that product,” he stated. “We believe the framework we build on top of is really irrelevant, it’s the feature set, the functionality and the value that people want out of JBuilder, and we will continue to provide that.” 我们用正版jb用不起，但是如果把自己喜欢的jb功能作为eclipse插件买回来，将来还是有可能的…… | |
| 37.Re:Jbuilder moving to Eclipse ！！强烈抗议Borland的暴行 [Re: Big Blue] | Copy to clipboard |
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Posted by: hawker Posted on: 2005-06-03 08:36 BEA的开发工具也基于eclipse了 我觉得没有什么不好呀，毕竟eclipse只是一个基础框架 | |
| 38.Re:Jbuilder moving to Eclipse ！！强烈抗议Borland的暴行 [Re: hawker] | Copy to clipboard |
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Posted by: Big Blue Posted on: 2005-06-03 10:02 俺不喜欢swt,不优美 | |
| 39.Re:Jbuilder moving to Eclipse ！！强烈抗议Borland的暴行 [Re: Big Blue] | Copy to clipboard |
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Posted by: java88 Posted on: 2005-06-03 10:38 Borland这么大的公司，能作出这么大的决定，自然有他的道理，吾等小辈哪里知晓。 另外，使用ECLIPSE是大势所趋，人心所向。正所谓历史潮流不可抗拒，识实务者为俊杰。劝老兄还是改良，使用ECLIPSE吧 | |
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